Judging Log

09:21 Garrett Hoofman Hey
09:22 Loren Roosendaal > hey garrett
09:22 Loren Roosendaal > how's everything winding down overthere?
09:25 Garrett Hoofman It's definitely winding down
09:25 Loren Roosendaal > hope you all had a fun time :)
09:27 Garrett Hoofman We did :)
09:27 Loren Roosendaal > and lots of caffeine it seems
09:28 Garrett Hoofman Tons of it
09:29 Loren Roosendaal > seeing you folks go at it via the webcam was quite fun
09:29 Loren Roosendaal > I had a few peeks earlier on
09:29 Garrett Hoofman hehe
09:29 Garrett Hoofman We had a pretty good turn out this year
09:30 Loren Roosendaal > some people seemed to really be figuring out how to develop this stuff even during the contest, ofcourse you could see that as limiting on the results, but I like to see the bright side, you've just introduced some new people to how much fun this is
09:33 Garrett Hoofman Oh yeah, every year I try something new, I think half of the people in the contest were experimenting with ideas, and that really is the goal of the event.
09:35 Loren Roosendaal > indeed, it's good to see so many people try something new
09:48 Garrett Hoofman We actually had 2 more games on top of what was submitted. One was a website game, and the other a java game. They may, with any luck, be submitted later this week, but not for judging
09:50 Loren Roosendaal > alright
09:51 Loren Roosendaal > you got any contact with the other judges/ idea when we can start taking a look at the submissions?
09:51 Loren Roosendaal > oh I see they are up at games already?
09:52 Garrett Hoofman Yep
09:52 Garrett Hoofman You're free to start looking at them, I haven't heard from the other judges though
10:01 Garrett Hoofman Hey Chris
10:02 Chirs Rhinehart > Hey all
10:02 Chirs Rhinehart > Just started grabbing the games and playing now
10:02 Loren Roosendaal > hey Chris
10:02 Garrett Hoofman I've got one more coming yet
10:02 Chirs Rhinehart > So there will be a total of 7?
10:03 Garrett Hoofman Yep
10:03 Chirs Rhinehart > Sounds good
10:04 Loren Roosendaal > so far I've started from the bottom up and managed to run the time keeper game, came with a jar so that was helpful
10:04 Loren Roosendaal > apparently I need the JDK for the bottom most entry (time for heroes)
10:05 Loren Roosendaal > Tyme traders seems like a "compile it yourself" project? ;)
10:06 Chirs Rhinehart > Yeah, I was just looking at Thyme Traders... hmm
10:06 Garrett Hoofman Ok last one was just uploaded
10:07 Chirs Rhinehart > Getting a "page not found" error when trying to download the newest one
10:08 Garrett Hoofman Sorry, just updated
10:08 Sean Bulger > There we are
10:08 Garrett Hoofman Seems I was missing a / in my http:// :S
10:08 Garrett Hoofman Gotta update my code to fix that.
10:08 Chirs Rhinehart > No worries... got it
10:09 Sean Bulger > Lets see how many of these I can get through without needing a reboot, heh.
10:09 Loren Roosendaal > hehe
10:10 Chirs Rhinehart > And have all these been virus scanned? :-)
10:11 Garrett Hoofman Sorry, they haven't, hehe
10:14 Loren Roosendaal > I feel like I'm bound to make a whole lot of "find the fun first" comments here...
10:16 Chirs Rhinehart > Agreed.
10:16 Chirs Rhinehart > Are you guys able to run all of them?
10:17 Loren Roosendaal > managed to run about half so far
10:17 Sean Bulger > two for two
10:18 Loren Roosendaal > I've dropped by from time to time on the site so I know (also from the blogs) some of these guys are obviously trying their hand at stuff that's new to them ofcourse, as you can probably note from my little chat with garrett up there.
10:25 Rob Martyn > Hey all, as the non tech guy I figure I'll let you guys figure out how to make them work and then just piggyback
10:25 Chirs Rhinehart > Hey there, Rob
10:25 Chirs Rhinehart > Currently figuring out how to run them as well. I'm 2 for 2, too
10:26 Rob Martyn > Hey Chris. Where do I actually find the games? ON the games link up top?
10:26 Garrett Hoofman Yeah, the games link on the top, under the 2009 year
10:26 Sean Bulger >
http://www.visionsofafar.com/houghtongamejam/Games…
10:26 Chirs Rhinehart > Yes, go to the Games section
10:26 Sean Bulger > There :-)
10:26 Chirs Rhinehart > there are 7 total games
10:26 Chirs Rhinehart > Are you at the office?
10:29 Rob Martyn > Yup
10:30 Rob Martyn > Not sure I have java 1.5 or higher
10:30 Loren Roosendaal > right well so far I've managed to run all but: time for heroes, tyme traders and fuzzy pickles, but the last one simply because I don't have an xbox controler I presume
10:30 Sean Bulger > Likewise
10:30 Sean Bulger > Trying the other two now
10:32 Sean Bulger > And... same.
10:32 Chirs Rhinehart > I've only got slip stream and chronik working -- but installing JRE and such on my laptop right now
10:32 Sean Bulger > Doubltess that'd help, heh
10:34 Loren Roosendaal > cronik with a fe more touches would make a nice way to teach clock reading
10:34 Loren Roosendaal > few*
10:35 Sean Bulger > Could at that
10:38 Chirs Rhinehart > Rob, able to run everything? I'm having issues here with my laptop. Going to run into work and try them all on my work PC
10:39 Rob Martyn > is there an interface for cronik that I don't get?
10:39 Rob Martyn > So far, only tried cronik and slipstream, both work okay
10:40 Loren Roosendaal > cronik just has controls for spinning the clock
10:40 Loren Roosendaal > mousewheel or arrows work
10:41 Chirs Rhinehart > back in a bit, guys
10:48 Rob Martyn > Time for heroes not running for me; I'm supposed to do the "Run Game" MS-DOS batch file, yes? window just flickers open and immediately closes
10:48 Sean Bulger > I can't get it to run either.
10:48 Garrett Hoofman You need the jdk and to make sure that it's in the path of the folder <-- was told that
10:48 Sean Bulger > Hrm
10:49 Rob Martyn > ...and the jdk would be....
10:49 Loren Roosendaal > java development kit
10:50 Garrett Hoofman Yep
10:52 Rob Martyn > So go grab it from the net?
10:53 Sean Bulger > Yay for debian repos...
11:03 Rob Martyn > Running fuzzy pickles generates a "encountered an error, had to shut down, do you want to contact MS" window for me. After I installed the whole MS .net and XNA crap too.
11:04 Rob Martyn > On thym traders, do I want to run the .java file?
11:05 Sean Bulger > I have a feeling this fight in temporal insurgent is going to be somewhat endless.heh
11:05 Sean Bulger > Oh, yay!
11:10 Loren Roosendaal > lol
11:11 Loren Roosendaal > managed to make it all the way up to 2 million ish point in temporal insurgent
11:11 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I got pretty far
11:11 Loren Roosendaal > I get a feeling these people have gotten too good at their own game already
11:11 Sean Bulger > It wasn't too hard after getting Shockwave
11:12 Loren Roosendaal > well the later levels you pretty much need the 750K piledriver
11:12 Sean Bulger > yeah
11:12 Sean Bulger > heh
11:12 Loren Roosendaal > but it's commendalbe for having gameplay ;)
11:12 Sean Bulger > Indeed.
11:13 Loren Roosendaal > gonna install jdk and get some more food
11:13 Sean Bulger > Well, I got Thyme Traders up...
11:13 Sean Bulger > I think
11:13 Loren Roosendaal > have you managed to run that game that just came with java files and .class files yet?
11:13 Chirs Rhinehart > Back
11:13 Loren Roosendaal > ah yes
11:13 Sean Bulger > Yep
11:14 Loren Roosendaal > tymetraders
11:14 Loren Roosendaal > how are you running it?
11:14 Chirs Rhinehart > was just messing with Thyme Traders -- what did you do to get it going? Did you have to compile?
11:14 Sean Bulger > Using linux anyhow, I grabbed jdk, then opened the folder and ran "java ThymeTraders"
11:15 Sean Bulger > ...although now that I have it open I'm not sure how to use it
11:16 Chirs Rhinehart > I get an exception when I try to run it
11:16 Loren Roosendaal > lol
11:16 Loren Roosendaal > ofcourse that might not be your fault sean ;)
11:16 Sean Bulger > A useful error or no?
11:16 Sean Bulger > Possible!
11:17 Sean Bulger > I get the game loaded but, get past the start screen... can move up and down a menu, but that seems it so far.
11:17 Sean Bulger > Yay! Keyboard spamming ftw! What an odd control scheme.
11:23 Sean Bulger > And I got A Time for Heros to run
11:23 Sean Bulger > awesome
11:25 Sean Bulger > This viking appears to be some sort of trash bin.
11:26 Loren Roosendaal > so what's the control scheme for thyme? I just got it started with jdk myself
11:26 Loren Roosendaal > missing readme.txt... lol
11:26 Sean Bulger > You can use w and s, or up and down arrows to move the selector on the menu
11:27 Sean Bulger > then "." is confirm
11:27 Sean Bulger > and "," is cancel
11:27 Sean Bulger > (period and comma, respectively)
11:27 Sean Bulger > To buy things, you use the left arrow to set a value, then hit "period", same is true for selling
11:27 Sean Bulger > ... lousy emoticons
11:27 Sean Bulger > hit " period "
11:29 Chirs Rhinehart > currently installing jdk on my pc here... ugh.
11:29 Sean Bulger > Well, that seems to be everything
11:29 Sean Bulger > Heh, is it that bad?
11:30 Rob Martyn > Got jdk, installed, still can't open thyme traders. Is there a folder that I need to put in the TT game folder or something?
11:30 Loren Roosendaal > how did you run time for heroes btw?
11:30 Chirs Rhinehart > No, just hate jumping through hoops :) Just want to play the game and check it out!
11:30 Sean Bulger > Fair enough
11:30 Sean Bulger > To run time for heros
11:30 Sean Bulger > "appletviewer CRPG.java" as a command
11:31 Sean Bulger > If you're running windows that bat file should theoretically do that for you
11:31 Loren Roosendaal > yeah apparently my path to applet viewer isn't set tho
11:31 Loren Roosendaal > but it's good to know it works with app viewer
11:31 Loren Roosendaal > then I can find it and fix the path
11:31 Rob Martyn > I get an invalid or corrupt jarfile on Thyme Traders now that I have jdk installed
11:31 Sean Bulger > Alright
11:32 Sean Bulger > Hrm, odd
11:32 Sean Bulger > What are you using to run it?
11:32 Loren Roosendaal > you need to go all the way into the thyme traders folder where the java files are
11:32 Sean Bulger > Yeah, do that :-)
11:32 Loren Roosendaal > and run java thymetraders
11:32 Loren Roosendaal > from say the cmd or so
11:32 Sean Bulger > *Wills people to use Flash*
11:33 Loren Roosendaal > yeah or something that builds a ... dare I say it... exe file :P
11:33 Sean Bulger > Aw, but then I'd have to reboot. :-)
11:33 Loren Roosendaal > you mean after it crashes your system? ;)
11:34 Sean Bulger > Heh, quite possible.
11:34 Sean Bulger > I'd likely have to load up windows
11:34 Loren Roosendaal > had a brilliant DX 10 crash recently...
11:34 Sean Bulger > Oh?
11:34 Loren Roosendaal > selectively bluescreens a certain percentage of systems
11:34 Sean Bulger > Oh, that sounds happy.
11:35 Loren Roosendaal > and the reason rturned out being that you can't delay resizing your backbuffer after getting a window resize event
11:35 Loren Roosendaal > even if you aren't do anything with it
11:35 Loren Roosendaal > so basicaly on the bulk of computers this is all happy and fine
11:35 Sean Bulger > Right
11:35 Rob Martyn > okay, got it running from cmd line with hel pfrom Norm
11:35 Sean Bulger > Awesome.
11:35 Sean Bulger > Also, tell Norm hello for me. ;-)
11:35 Loren Roosendaal > then on those with I think GX cards and other SLI type setups it does an insta-bluescreen/reboot
11:36 Loren Roosendaal > so technically it may be nvidias fault ofcourse
11:36 Loren Roosendaal > quite hillarious still
11:36 Sean Bulger > Heh
11:36 Loren Roosendaal > how easy it is to still bump into these hard reboot crashes
11:36 Sean Bulger > To be honest, I don't think that'll be changing any time soon.
11:37 Loren Roosendaal > indeed, little doubt about that
11:37 Loren Roosendaal > but we always hope and dream don't we? ;)
11:37 Sean Bulger > It'd be a glorious day.
11:37 Chirs Rhinehart > they are definitely more rare these days, though
11:37 Loren Roosendaal > yup
11:37 Sean Bulger > Yeah, they are.
11:38 Loren Roosendaal > I mean nowadays you're like *shock* they still have those... I'd almost forgotten...
11:38 Sean Bulger > Indeed.
11:38 Sean Bulger > I was greeted with a blue screen the other day and actually was a little surprised.
11:38 Loren Roosendaal > whereas a few years back it was more like... dang... I guess it didn't like that either... oh well let's try another approach
11:40 Chirs Rhinehart > I had a good one a couple weeks ago where my machine just randomly rebooted. No bluescreen. Just ZORK! it was out.
11:40 Sean Bulger > On a totally random note, I had no idea meebo offered chats like this.
11:40 Sean Bulger > Haven't had that happen in a long time.
11:41 Loren Roosendaal > hehe yeah those are the best just hard reboot
11:42 Loren Roosendaal > a time for heroes = pokemon? ;)
11:44 Sean Bulger > Slipstream is difficult with my defect trackball.
11:45 Chirs Rhinehart > I'm thinking I may need more time for judging :)
11:45 Sean Bulger > I think I got a fairly decent feel for everything
11:47 Sean Bulger > Heh, just noticed that Garrat got my title wrong on the judging page.
11:47 Loren Roosendaal > you got to have a title? awww... lol
11:48 Chirs Rhinehart > I'm still unable to run a number of these... not sure how to judge it in that case :)
11:48 Loren Roosendaal > which ones are still out for you?
11:48 Sean Bulger > Hehe, yes, I had a title! :-P
11:49 Loren Roosendaal > looks at the judges page again
11:49 Rob Martyn > Time for heroes still doesn't work -0
11:49 Chirs Rhinehart > ThymeTrader (java exception, even with newest java installed :\) and A Time for Heroes
11:50 Rob Martyn > appletviewer is not recognized as in internal or external command
11:50 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I'm listed as our programmer, but I'm actually design/art/everything-but-programming ;-)
11:50 Loren Roosendaal > yes your entry does seem a little limited... oh and now that I am reading the judges page again, how's the undisclosed title doing Chris? ;)
11:50 Sean Bulger > It's Rune 2 right? Totally Rune 2.
11:50 Loren Roosendaal > ah ok, well how does it feel to be listed as a programmer? lol
11:51 Sean Bulger > I feel more oddly geeky.
11:51 Rob Martyn > I CAN run Temporal Insurgent, Thyme traders, Cronik and Slipstream, CAN'T run Heroes, Pickles
11:51 Loren Roosendaal > it's never too late to change carreers ;)
11:51 Rob Martyn > Need to install flash to try Kid Adventure
11:51 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I can't run pickles either, but the videos show off enough, I think
11:51 Sean Bulger > Sort of.
11:51 Sean Bulger > Heh, I'm good. ;-)
11:51 Rob Martyn > Where are the videos?
11:51 Chirs Rhinehart > Yeah, I looked at the video, too for Pickles. Cant' get a feel for the gameplay, of course, though
11:51 Chirs Rhinehart > vids are linked from the game page
11:52 Sean Bulger > Bunch of youtube videos, yeah.
11:52 Loren Roosendaal > yeah, basicaly with pickles I'm wondering if there's any higher level gameplay other then move around and hit attack on things
11:52 Sean Bulger > The first few don't show much, the last few do some stuff
11:52 Sean Bulger > I'm really wondering how well tied each era is.
11:52 Sean Bulger > It doesn't look like they're hugely tied together.
11:52 Loren Roosendaal > I mean the concept seemed more extensive but it showes no more then 3 different maps with 5 guys infront of one another and turn based battle controls
11:52 Loren Roosendaal > shows*
11:52 Sean Bulger > And the three maps are basically the same map
11:52 Sean Bulger > Just different eras or some such
11:53 Loren Roosendaal > yeah exactly
11:53 Sean Bulger > It looks like you, basically, just play 3 TBS games at once
11:53 Loren Roosendaal > yeah, the initial idea they pushed in their blog was that each time would affect the other
11:53 Sean Bulger > Which, if true, is a bit of a shame, as it could be a neat idea.
11:53 Sean Bulger > Right
11:53 Loren Roosendaal > burn down a forest in the past and have the enemy suddenly have no cover in the future
11:54 Loren Roosendaal > however I don't think they got any of that implemented
11:54 Sean Bulger > I think their idea was likely way too ambitious for a game ham.
11:54 Sean Bulger > *jam.
11:54 Loren Roosendaal > yup
11:54 Sean Bulger > Mmm... Game Ham...
11:54 Chirs Rhinehart > My impressions were the same as yours... the idea sounds cool, if the time zones affect each other
11:54 Sean Bulger > Yep
11:54 Chirs Rhinehart > not clear why that game needs to be 3D, either.
11:54 Loren Roosendaal > start small find the fun first...
11:54 Sean Bulger > Which likely took up a significant amount of time.
11:54 Sean Bulger > Definitely
11:54 Chirs Rhinehart > exactly
11:55 Loren Roosendaal > odds are it would have been better if they got a top downer version of it working first and dealt with the mechanics
11:55 Sean Bulger > Their idea would work fine with very simple 2d graphics.
11:55 Sean Bulger > Exactly
11:55 Loren Roosendaal > I read they used a starter framework with the terrain/water in it
11:55 Loren Roosendaal > so it was probably a kind of lets use these cool graphics as a base
11:55 Sean Bulger > That might be the case.
11:56 Loren Roosendaal > in any case it's a shame the mechanics don't actualy work yet as far as we can see here
11:57 Loren Roosendaal > I mean the use of the time theme is only apparent through 3 battlefields, but that in itself hardly counts...
11:57 Sean Bulger > Basically
11:58 Sean Bulger > Still closer than ThymeTraders (as much as I enjoy a good pun)
11:58 Loren Roosendaal > haha yes
11:58 Loren Roosendaal > I thought maybe thymetraders spanned different era's or so
11:58 Rob Martyn > Chris knows I'm about the mouseclicks, I don't see the pickles videos as even showing what the gameplay would be in terms of a turn-based experience.
11:59 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
11:59 Sean Bulger > Right
11:59 Sean Bulger > I'm pretty sure most of that wasn't built in.
11:59 Rob Martyn > The last video just shows one guy coming in and killing hte other team; looks like 3 levels of chess at one time, except they didn't figure out the chess rules
11:59 Loren Roosendaal > they should have gone top down 2d with regular controls
11:59 Sean Bulger > Agreed.
11:59 Loren Roosendaal > and just gotten the mechanics right and they might have had a winner there
11:59 Rob Martyn > I'd give them points for being ambitious and not finishing it, but I don't see that they even started it
12:00 Loren Roosendaal > I would have enjoyed just seeing the buring forest/breaking dams or so mechanic in there
12:00 Sean Bulger > Well... I don't know if I agree entirely.
12:00 Sean Bulger > Planning in the scope of a project is very important.
12:00 Chirs Rhinehart > especially with a 24 hour game like this. Need to get the basic mechanics up as quickly as possible, first
12:00 Sean Bulger > Exactly
12:01 Sean Bulger > I'll give them props for a neat idea, but...
12:01 Rob Martyn > Okay, true...I guess my point is more, I'm looking for a play mechanic - a risk/reward, a resource management, a twitch accuracy; I don't see any of these in this demo
12:01 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I understand
12:01 Rob Martyn > (my poitn is not that I;'m looking to give them points, it's more that they missed the mechanic entirely in the first place.)
12:01 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I understand. :-)
12:02 Loren Roosendaal > yeah, I mean I can see in both chronic, temporal and insurgent that they clearly established a mechanic, good or not so good, they definately got one down and it relates to time
12:02 Rob Martyn > I don't have video for Heroes; is that somewhere and I'm missing it?
12:02 Loren Roosendaal > there's no video up for it
12:02 Loren Roosendaal > heroes plays like a pokemon game for the gba
12:02 Rob Martyn > okay, so I can't run it either, so I'm in Chris's boat on this one
12:03 Loren Roosendaal > there's a little backstory about you going out for a taco
12:03 Gambit-eee Hey guys
12:03 Sean Bulger > Hey
12:03 Loren Roosendaal > then some timeline enforcement agency has you help them save the world or so
12:03 Loren Roosendaal > which involves walking up to vikings who ask history trivia questions
12:03 Sean Bulger > One of which looks like a trash bin
12:03 Loren Roosendaal > hey garrett
12:03 Rob Martyn > bummer, I love history and trivia
12:04 Garrett Hoofman You guys run into any big problems?
12:04 Sean Bulger > The questions aren't terribly difficult. :-)
12:04 Rob Martyn > EVen better :)
12:04 Sean Bulger > Hehe
12:04 Chirs Rhinehart > Hey you know now that it's garbage day?
12:04 Loren Roosendaal > it's "episode 1" and the idea is you travel through time to other episodes to solve situations where timelines have gotten messed up
12:04 Sean Bulger > I've gotten through everything
12:04 Sean Bulger > I have to admit, XKA got a chuckle out of me when I heard the sound clip
12:05 Rob Martyn > I have to close this window to install flash for Kid adventure (adobe says), so I'll be right back
12:05 Loren Roosendaal > and ofcourse in this episode it's vikings entering the current time :P
12:05 Loren Roosendaal > ok
12:05 Chirs Rhinehart > Hi Garrett
12:05 Loren Roosendaal > yeah garrett, we're just talking over the games a bit, some of us managed to play most of em, but chriss and rob had trouble starting a few of em
12:05 Chirs Rhinehart > Only issue I've had is I cannot run ThymeTraders, Fuzzy Pickle, or A Time for Heroes
12:06 Loren Roosendaal > Chris*
12:06 Chirs Rhinehart > still messing around with trying to get Heroes working
12:06 Chirs Rhinehart > Well, I take that back -- could get Fuzzy Pickle working, but no 360 controller on the pc here at home
12:06 Sean Bulger > I'm figuring out how I order them up to each other in the three categories you listed, basically.
12:07 Loren Roosendaal > basically none of us can use Fuzzy Pickle, aside from what is shown in the video is there any actual timeline interaction in the current version?
12:07 Sean Bulger > Apparently none of us actually own a 360 :-)
12:07 Garrett Hoofman The idea for the timeline interaction is there, but it never got put into effect
12:08 Garrett Hoofman lol, neither do I
12:08 Loren Roosendaal > yeah that's what I figured
12:08 Chirs Rhinehart > I have one here -- just don't have the cable to hook it up to the PC. Rob should have one at the office, though
12:08 Sean Bulger > I'm largly basing my views on what is actually there
12:08 Rob Martyn > I have a 360 controller, but can't get it to run
12:08 Sean Bulger > Ah, I see
12:08 Sean Bulger > Oh, the irony!
12:08 Chirs Rhinehart > :(
12:09 Loren Roosendaal > yup, same here, I mean I really liked the idea of the timezone interactions, but at the end of the day it is about what made it in...
12:10 Loren Roosendaal > if nothing else a lot of people should have learned some great planning lessons today
12:10 Sean Bulger > I would stress that
12:14 Loren Roosendaal > I like how Temporal insurgence basicaly scores you for acting like a daredevil...
12:14 Sean Bulger > heh
12:15 Loren Roosendaal > by using proximity to enemy bullets as a scoring event
12:15 Sean Bulger > I didn't really notice
12:15 Sean Bulger > Oh?
12:15 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
12:15 Sean Bulger > That actually is pretty neat
12:15 Rob Martyn > I didn't notice either
12:15 Loren Roosendaal > try it
12:15 Rob Martyn > You increase your score when you're in bullet time as they are close to you?
12:15 Loren Roosendaal > the bullet time that goes on is triggered by enemy bullets being nearby
12:15 Sean Bulger > Might well affect some rankings
12:15 Loren Roosendaal > the worse the mess of bullets you're in the faster the points grow at that point
12:16 Loren Roosendaal > they should have added a clear score graphics to make it more obvious
12:16 Loren Roosendaal > but they did note it in the readme
12:16 Rob Martyn > So, the fact that you got to 200 million or whatever shows that they were all over you? :)
12:16 Loren Roosendaal > haha well I try to be all over the bullets rather
12:16 Sean Bulger > I might bump up some innovation for that - haven't seen scoring like that before, from memory
12:16 Loren Roosendaal > only in one or 2 racing games that score for near misses
12:17 Loren Roosendaal > I think one of the old NFS'es did it
12:17 Loren Roosendaal > but this is different ofcourse
12:17 Sean Bulger > Oh, right
12:17 Loren Roosendaal > that was more like added satyle points
12:17 Loren Roosendaal > style*
12:17 Sean Bulger > The only problem with that in this game is that I really don't want to kill the enemies
12:17 Sean Bulger > I want them to keep shooting at me
12:17 Loren Roosendaal > haha to gain points?
12:18 Loren Roosendaal > well once you get a tad further you have to kill some
12:18 Chirs Rhinehart > And, it didn't seem too threatening -- too much health in that game
12:18 Loren Roosendaal > but then you can hold out with say the biggest baddy for a while to "level up a bit"
12:18 Loren Roosendaal > you really have to get to the later stages
12:18 Sean Bulger > Yeah
12:19 Loren Roosendaal > the big red bullets kill you fast
12:19 Chirs Rhinehart > ran into the same issues you guys did -- didn't realize the "get near bullets for points" / Treasure shoot-em-up type of game design at first
12:19 Sean Bulger > I noticed that getting into it. The difficulty does scale
12:19 Rob Martyn > I found the enemies a little small and pretty random, so I didn't feel powerful, but then I thought the goal wsa to kill them, not to stay in bullet range
12:19 Sean Bulger > tbh, I've seen worse games on kongregate and such.
12:19 Sean Bulger > (Not sure what that says though)
12:19 Chirs Rhinehart > I ran into that, too, Rob... too fast. Then I started using the time zones to keep them from moving around so much. Seemed to help. At least shows that there's some potential depth to be had there
12:19 Loren Roosendaal > what's holding this game back other then lack of clarity about the mechanic
12:20 Rob Martyn > Yes, this was definitely one of the better ones for me. (of course, it ran, so that was a good start)
12:20 Loren Roosendaal > is really the fact that the starter levels take a fair bit of skill to get through fast
12:20 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I think the idea (then agian, maybe unintentional) is that the enemies are too fast, so you need to get into bullet time to hit them more easily
12:20 Loren Roosendaal > simply because it tends to take long to kill baddies with the initial weapons
12:20 Rob Martyn > It wasn't clear to me how to use the time zones; since the enemy motion was so random, I created big zones, but I didn't know hwo to use them to advantage
12:20 Sean Bulger > Yeah, the first red one you fight seems to take an age
12:21 Rob Martyn > same here, Sean
12:21 Loren Roosendaal > and that slows you from advancing to higher levels where there's actual challenge and more suitable weapons to hit them
12:21 Sean Bulger > That was a problem for me too - their movement is really random
12:21 Loren Roosendaal > the movement needs to be predictable
12:21 Rob Martyn > Honestly, though, if the issue is progression here, that's a good problem to have among these games
12:21 Sean Bulger > Yep
12:21 Loren Roosendaal > and less rapidly changing in directions
12:21 Loren Roosendaal > right now it only gets playable once you get the 750K piledriver or so
12:21 Sean Bulger > It isn't a perfect game, but a few tweaks and it could be fairly fun
12:21 Loren Roosendaal > since it allows you to do a decent spread of super damaging shots
12:22 Rob Martyn > I always loved Asteroids, and this is an interesting take on asteroids
12:22 Sean Bulger > Arena shooters are fairly enjoyable.
12:22 Sean Bulger > In general.
12:22 Loren Roosendaal > but it's very obvious they went and tried to find some sort of a fun mechanic first, they just should have spent more time polishing the mechanic and less adding weapons gallore ;)
12:22 Rob Martyn > As far as time goes, as noted above, I didnt' find the zones to be that meaningful, but the bbullet time when bullets get near you, combined with the scoring, is a pretty interesting use of time
12:22 Sean Bulger > Loren: that is my impression as well
12:23 Rob Martyn > Agreed, Lorn
12:23 Rob Martyn > Loren*
12:23 Sean Bulger > Yeah, finding that actually changes some of my opinions on it a fair bit
12:23 Rob Martyn > But a fairly common early designer mistake - adding volume to "expand" gameplay instead of focusingg
12:24 Sean Bulger > That sounds about right.
12:24 Loren Roosendaal > yup.... on another note, I think we probably agree the pokemon soundtrack featuring XboX Kid game mmm.... seems to be somewhere in the backfield?
12:24 Chirs Rhinehart > did you guys use the time rewind in there at all? I didn't find a use for it, really
12:24 Rob Martyn > I'll also say, very accessible - Jar file included, music included
12:24 Sean Bulger > There's a soundtrack? :-P
12:25 Rob Martyn > Chris, you never find a use for time rewind :)
12:25 Sean Bulger > I used it, but after I did, I never used ita gain as it seemed kinda pointless
12:25 Chirs Rhinehart > Hahaha... :)
12:25 Loren Roosendaal > yeah you can use it to "un-die" and to fix major screwups, but this is later when bullets actualy do kill you
12:25 Sean Bulger > Oh. Well, that would help
12:25 Loren Roosendaal > it's implemented in a predetermined hard to control way tho
12:25 Loren Roosendaal > making it less usefull
12:25 Sean Bulger > I expect it to be as long as I held down space, I went back (to a set amount)
12:25 Sean Bulger > Which wasn't the case
12:25 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:26 Loren Roosendaal > that was annoying
12:26 Loren Roosendaal > so I only ended up using it on death
12:26 Loren Roosendaal > or when I really got in the middle of all the bullets in the world
12:26 Sean Bulger > When I used it to avoid getting hit by stuff, I found I just went back -too- far
12:26 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
12:26 Loren Roosendaal > hence I only used it when I got hit by enough bullets at once to like take 75% of my health
12:27 Loren Roosendaal > it goes back a set time so it's not all that great
12:27 Loren Roosendaal > it seems another bit of volume over polish
12:27 Loren Roosendaal > rewind systems are a fair bit of work afterall
12:28 Sean Bulger > I'd think so, yeah
12:28 Loren Roosendaal > I'd gladly have traded it for predictable AI, slightly more balanced weapons or extra lives
12:29 Loren Roosendaal > either way it was definately one of the top games in there for me
12:29 Sean Bulger > The use of altering time for scoring was a great use of the theme already
12:29 Chirs Rhinehart > I think an overall comment for all these games is that they need more feedback on what's happening to you
12:29 Loren Roosendaal > indeed
12:29 Loren Roosendaal > yeah chris... feedback is very lackluster for all of them
12:29 Sean Bulger > Agreed
12:30 Chirs Rhinehart > the bulletttime stuff -- I thought there was a bug causing the game to slow down. I actually quit and restarted it when it first happened
12:30 Loren Roosendaal > that should be obvious when even for one of the better games it takes 4 people to have one of them find the key mechanic ;)
12:30 Sean Bulger > Ah, hehe.
12:30 Sean Bulger > I got the point at first
12:30 Sean Bulger > Yep
12:30 Chirs Rhinehart > haha... true :)
12:30 Sean Bulger > I actually managed to beat slipstream, so I feel somewhat happy with myself.
12:30 Chirs Rhinehart > Rob's over there writing all this down to remind me later for HH games -- more feedback! :)
12:31 Sean Bulger > hehe
12:31 Rob Martyn > :)
12:31 Sean Bulger > I'm keeping mental notes ;-)
12:31 Loren Roosendaal > hehe
12:31 Chirs Rhinehart > slipstream was cool... a few minor annoying issues, but overall was cool. Although, I swear I already played that game online somewhere
12:31 Rob Martyn > No, actually, I was playing again with the points mechanic in mind
12:31 Rob Martyn > Yes, it's a Kongregate game, Will showed us
12:31 Sean Bulger > Oh?
12:31 Chirs Rhinehart > Yes, exactly
12:31 Sean Bulger > Hadn't seen that one.
12:31 Rob Martyn > It's a great mechanic, it's just already been done, and done better and is available online
12:32 Sean Bulger > That's a shame.
12:32 Loren Roosendaal > ah yeah that's a shame indeed
12:32 Loren Roosendaal > hadn't seen that yet
12:32 Sean Bulger > Although, i'll need to track that one down
12:32 Rob Martyn > Or Raphael, maybe, I'll point you to it
12:32 Rob Martyn > hang on...
12:32 Sean Bulger > As I liked the mechanic
12:32 Sean Bulger > I was going to give high marks for innovation too!
12:32 Loren Roosendaal > it makes sense too if you look at the key point of these typical bullet candy games
12:33 Loren Roosendaal > ofcourse so many things have been done before...
12:33 Sean Bulger > Its hard to be truly innovative.
12:33 Sean Bulger > (So, I'll still give it high marks :-P)
12:33 Chirs Rhinehart > Yup, there are no original ideas
12:33 Chirs Rhinehart > :)
12:33 Loren Roosendaal > so how'd you guys like the timekeeper game? (numbers in the clock)
12:33 Sean Bulger > Everything is derived from something else, and all that.
12:34 Sean Bulger > I got bored real quick, but it has potential.
12:34 Chirs Rhinehart > need to make things fresh...yes, exactly
12:34 Rob Martyn > Well, yeah, there are no original ideas, but this one is really similar ot the other one
12:34 Sean Bulger > I've played similarish games before.
12:34 Chirs Rhinehart > the clock one was kind of cool once I got the hang of it. high frustration factor due to needing to wait while the numbers bounce around and *almost* get in the slot
12:34 Loren Roosendaal > that was another one that ran and did actualy feature some form of gameplay, personally I found the play not all that "fun" but they did pick a mechanic and went with it atleast
12:35 Sean Bulger > The key to that game is that it has a very, very simple mechanic. It'd likely work well as a simple casual game
12:35 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:35 Chirs Rhinehart > I like the part where all the numbers disappear, though -- that was a fairly cool moment
12:35 Rob Martyn > I'd give the timekeeper game credit in that it has a game mechanic (however simplistic), which puts it ahead of Kid's adventure, Heroes, and pickles
12:35 Loren Roosendaal > and it's a nice clock reading teacher
12:35 Chirs Rhinehart > showed that they have some ideas for progression/depth
12:35 Sean Bulger > Right
12:35 Loren Roosendaal > agreed rob
12:35 Loren Roosendaal > I actualy finished timekeeper
12:35 Rob Martyn > agreed on all the points above
12:35 Rob Martyn > Is there a finish?
12:35 Rob Martyn > really?
12:35 Sean Bulger > I had to stop after the "something is wrong with 12" one.
12:35 Loren Roosendaal > and it goes all the way to an empty clock and only a few numbers a time...
12:35 Sean Bulger > I think it glitched on me. :-P
12:36 Chirs Rhinehart > I stopped at the same place as Sean... waited forever for that 12 to finally come down
12:36 Loren Roosendaal > so I could see this also working to teach kids a bit about that :)
12:37 Sean Bulger > I think you could do a game to teach kids how to read a clock a bit more effectively...
12:37 Loren Roosendaal > yeah it congratulates you on fixing your wife's clock and lets you exit by pressing esc basically
12:37 Sean Bulger > It actually, to me, seemed more like learning to count.
12:37 Loren Roosendaal > haha granted sean :)
12:37 Loren Roosendaal > but it has a somewhat interesting permise atleast and they have a mechanic going
12:37 Sean Bulger > It did
12:37 Sean Bulger > It was in my 'top 3' so to speak
12:37 Rob Martyn > This one also I found the biggest issue was that numbers I thought should go in didn't go in; it was a little frustrating when I thought I was close enough but wasn't
12:38 Sean Bulger > Hrm, I didn't really notice much of a problem with that.
12:38 Rob Martyn > Just a little tweak to make it SLIGHTLY more forgiving would have made a difference, more so than the depth of levels
12:38 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:38 Rob Martyn > You're probably a better game rthna I am :)
12:38 Sean Bulger > Hehe, maybe.
12:38 Rob Martyn > (Chris will tell you this is true)
12:38 Loren Roosendaal > was in my top 3 too
12:38 Sean Bulger > I wanted something to happen when I put the wrong number in somewhere.
12:39 Sean Bulger > But that would have been real bad for later levels
12:39 Rob Martyn > Me too
12:39 Rob Martyn > Yeah, good point Sean.
12:39 Rob Martyn > Would have been powerful to have some fun negative fedback
12:39 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:39 Loren Roosendaal > I was expecting the same disaster to strike
12:39 Sean Bulger > That was honestly my biggest problem with it
12:39 Loren Roosendaal > but when the number***** the wrong spot they just bounced
12:39 Sean Bulger > It made it feel less like a game and "wait until the numbers bounce into the right place"
12:39 Loren Roosendaal > in the end you couldn't do that ofcourse...
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > they would atleast need a countdown...
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > I mean it's a clock anyways ;)
12:40 Sean Bulger > A countdown would have worked
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > make it do the countdown if need be
12:40 Rob Martyn > Yes, that would have been a good idea
12:40 Sean Bulger > The hands of the clock themselves could have acted as it!
12:40 Rob Martyn > move it from toy to pressure
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > exactly
12:40 Rob Martyn > agree, Sean
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > a round of the second hand
12:40 Sean Bulger > That would actually be pretty cool.
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > 60 seconds per level
12:40 Rob Martyn > Seems kind of obvious now
12:40 Loren Roosendaal > slightly more easy to connect
12:40 Rob Martyn > more time themed
12:41 Loren Roosendaal > that was bvasicaly how I saw it working when I first tried it
12:41 Sean Bulger > I'm surprised that didn't hit me when I was playing it
12:41 Loren Roosendaal > but definately that should be good feedback for them
12:41 Chirs Rhinehart > that is a cool idea!
12:41 Rob Martyn > Actually, with a couple of tweaks like this, I could see this as an iphone download game for $1.99
12:41 Sean Bulger > I think that would put the fun into that game
12:41 Sean Bulger > Totally
12:41 Chirs Rhinehart > and agreed with Rob that the slot should be more forgiving
12:42 Chirs Rhinehart > definitely...could be a cool iphone game
12:42 Rob Martyn > (Maybe $0.99)
12:42 Sean Bulger > Spin the wheel with a finger or the acceleromator
12:42 Loren Roosendaal > still I feel as far as the easy of controlling the games went timekeepers and insurgent were both better then slipstream
12:42 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:42 Loren Roosendaal > or spin the phone ;)
12:42 Sean Bulger > The first thing I thought of with it was an iPhone game
12:42 Sean Bulger > Exactly
12:42 Sean Bulger > That'd be kinda fun
12:42 Rob Martyn > agreed Loren on controllers
12:42 Rob Martyn > (still looking for the Kongregate game)
12:43 Sean Bulger > I had a lot of issues with slipstream, really.
12:43 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
12:43 Sean Bulger > Granted, at least half of them were due to my shoddy trackball that I need to replace
12:43 Sean Bulger > But, having the triangles rotate would often cause me to miss something I'm clicking on
12:43 Loren Roosendaal > it was hard to figure out and felt irresponsive at first
12:43 Sean Bulger > I was completely lost when I first tried it
12:43 Loren Roosendaal > I reallly really had to read the readme to get it
12:44 Loren Roosendaal > but in the end it does have a time mechanic atleast
12:44 Sean Bulger > Once I understood how it worked, I enjoyed it
12:44 Loren Roosendaal > just out of those 3 it's the one that's probably the least polished and easy to use
12:44 Sean Bulger > For the most part
12:44 Sean Bulger > Yes
12:44 Chirs Rhinehart > yeah, it could use more polish, definitely
12:45 Loren Roosendaal > but I see it working with some better controls, graphics and explanation
12:45 Loren Roosendaal > again more feedback, lol
12:45 Sean Bulger > A quick little tutorial would be nice
12:45 Sean Bulger > Or something
12:45 Chirs Rhinehart > especially annoying stuff like better feedback on which triangle you are (red border wasn't enough for me), and putting you on the correct side of the screen when going through doors
12:45 Loren Roosendaal > going through doors imo should have been all on 1 screen or so
12:45 Sean Bulger > Yep
12:46 Sean Bulger > I found that kind of annoying as well
12:46 Loren Roosendaal > it felt very weird clicking through and especially when you run out of time and go back to the first room
12:46 Loren Roosendaal > at first that made me go like wtf?
12:46 Sean Bulger > Oh, the first time that happened I was so confused
12:46 Loren Roosendaal > exactly sean
12:46 Sean Bulger > For the first while I couldn't keep track of what room I was in. :-)
12:47 Loren Roosendaal > then there's thyme traders and a time for heroes, which neither chris or rob have been able to play... I think?
12:47 Chirs Rhinehart > correct
12:47 Rob Martyn > No, I played Thyme traders
12:47 Loren Roosendaal > ah ok :)
12:47 Loren Roosendaal > well the control scheme of thyme was hell
12:48 Sean Bulger > Oh yes.
12:48 Sean Bulger > I had to keyboard-spam to figure out what to do
12:48 Loren Roosendaal > and they threw a HECK of a lot of features at it ;)
12:48 Loren Roosendaal > I mean walk across maps, encounters and trading
12:48 Rob Martyn > I would probably still be working it out if I hadn't seen your instructions here
12:48 Sean Bulger > Yay, I'm helpful!
12:48 Rob Martyn > :)
12:49 Sean Bulger > It was really, really different. Not sure why they used that control scheme.
12:49 Rob Martyn > It was a lot, and from a scope standpoint, felt like the most complete multi-level scoping of all of them
12:49 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:49 Rob Martyn > Execution wasn't good, but I could imagine a whole (7 Cities of Gold: thing being created from it
12:49 Sean Bulger > So could I.
12:50 Rob Martyn > ( : being my version of " "
12:50 Loren Roosendaal > as a game experience it had a lot of the key elements without any of the additional polish or menus etc. to make it complete
12:50 Sean Bulger > 'bout as intuitive as the control scheme. ;-)
12:50 Rob Martyn > But definitely some down grades ffor control and interface
12:50 Loren Roosendaal > basicaly a boatload of features and "mechanics" but none of them complete
12:50 Rob Martyn > and, arguably, none of them fun yet
12:50 Loren Roosendaal > yup
12:51 Sean Bulger > Right
12:51 Loren Roosendaal > that was the most lacking part
12:51 Sean Bulger > And, as for theme... Not used. Just punned.
12:51 Loren Roosendaal > not one mechanic had reached the point of fun imo
12:51 Rob Martyn > the combat didn't feel controllable, it wasn't clear from my limited time how I was spending my money
12:51 Sean Bulger > It didn't at all
12:51 Rob Martyn > pathing through forest or mountain didn't seem like a gameplay dynamic
12:51 Sean Bulger > I wasn't even sure I actually had any control at first other than to flee from enemies
12:51 Rob Martyn > I got good a fleeing :)
12:52 Rob Martyn > at*
12:52 Loren Roosendaal > I didn't even know you could flee ;)
12:52 Rob Martyn > (random pressing of arrow keys in combat)
12:52 Loren Roosendaal > haha
12:52 Sean Bulger > If there's one thing I know how to do in games is to run around in panic!
12:52 Loren Roosendaal > I eventualy managed to hack and slash quite ok
12:52 Loren Roosendaal > indeed sean
12:52 Loren Roosendaal > typical resonse to chaos gameplay
12:53 Chirs Rhinehart > haha :)
12:53 Sean Bulger > Typical response to what I do in games in general >_>
12:53 Loren Roosendaal > like ehm... wtf... dodge...
12:53 Sean Bulger > But, yeah, hehe
12:53 Loren Roosendaal > then there's a time for heroes
12:53 Sean Bulger > But, as was mentioned, it had a few mechanics, none where fun - too much time split up over them, I figure
12:54 Sean Bulger > Biggest advice for TFH: I don't need a new screen every time a little bit of text is added when it isn't a conversation.
12:54 Loren Roosendaal > hahaha
12:54 Loren Roosendaal > that was on the top of my list too
12:54 Sean Bulger > That annoyed me from the get-go
12:55 Loren Roosendaal > and you go looking for what the heck changed
12:55 Loren Roosendaal > like spot the 10 differences :P
12:55 Sean Bulger > "Oh. there's some sprite there. Oh, there's now another sprite there. Was that necessary?"
12:55 Rob Martyn > by the way guys, try this http://www.thegamehomepage.com/play/cursor-x-10/
12:56 Loren Roosendaal > but yeah, history quiz meets time travel meets pokemon style rpg battle system
12:56 Loren Roosendaal > that's what slipstream should have been
12:59 Sean Bulger > Yeah that is extremely similar
12:59 Sean Bulger > And less irritating
12:59 Rob Martyn > which is why I didn't have any trouble figuring out the game - I had already played it
13:00 Chirs Rhinehart > yes, same here.
13:00 Rob Martyn > Not sure how to think about that; if the writer hadn't seen it, it's pretty decent (other than controls) for 24 hours.
13:00 Rob Martyn > If they HAD seen it, kind of hard to reward them
13:00 Loren Roosendaal > yup, let's presume these people weren't specifically out to duplicate existing games
13:00 Rob Martyn > Mechanics like countdown and boxes are almost identical
13:00 Loren Roosendaal > if they'd seen this one honestly the result they had would have probably been better ;)
13:01 Rob Martyn > :)
13:01 Loren Roosendaal > thought the countdown is a bit suspect indeed
13:01 Rob Martyn > Wow, they guys and girls I want are on TRUE!
13:01 Rob Martyn > I wondered where they were
13:02 Chirs Rhinehart > ha...those ads are nothing but fun
13:02 Loren Roosendaal > then there's pickles which we already discussed before
13:02 Loren Roosendaal > and the xbox kid game, but that one imo had the least substance of em all?
13:02 Rob Martyn > I would agree with you there
13:03 Sean Bulger > yep
13:04 Chirs Rhinehart > agreed
13:04 Loren Roosendaal > personally I think my top 3 out of them all is insurgent, chronik and the 3rd I guess is a bit of a tossup
13:04 Sean Bulger > There was no actual gameplay
13:04 Sean Bulger > That's where I stand
13:05 Chirs Rhinehart > My top 3 are insurgent, slipstream, and chronik
13:05 Sean Bulger > For third... If slipstream really is just derived from that, then it isn't that one... but if it were actually something conceived of by the creator, I'd probably bump that up there
13:05 Rob Martyn > I think Chronik should get points for the title, but maybe that's just my '90's rapper background
13:05 Sean Bulger > lol
13:05 Chirs Rhinehart > of course, I didn't actually play all of them :\
13:05 Chirs Rhinehart > haha... agreed, Rob
13:05 Loren Roosendaal > for my top 3 the 3rd place is basicaly between slip and a time for heroes...
13:06 Loren Roosendaal > both had a mechanic atleast
13:06 Sean Bulger > Yes
13:06 Sean Bulger > I guess if we assume that he hadn't seen that game before, I'd pop slipstream up there
13:06 Loren Roosendaal > time for heroes felt a bit less finnicky to control to me
13:06 Sean Bulger > There is that
13:06 Loren Roosendaal > but yeah it seems we're all on a similar page
13:06 Sean Bulger > I don't think that's too surprising. :-)
13:07 Loren Roosendaal > haha no :)
13:07 Loren Roosendaal > hard not to be
13:07 Rob Martyn > So, I'm doing my judging based on the criteria, here's what i have
13:07 Rob Martyn > in order of Best game, Theme, innovative
13:07 Loren Roosendaal > shoot :)
13:08 Rob Martyn > Temporal Insurgent 7 7 7
13:08 Rob Martyn > Cronik 5 5 4
13:08 Rob Martyn > Thyme Traders 4 1 4
13:08 Rob Martyn > Slipstream 3 5 0
13:08 Rob Martyn > Pickles 2 3 3
13:08 Rob Martyn > Kid Adventure 1 1 1
13:08 Rob Martyn > Time for Heroes DNQ
13:08 Rob Martyn > :)
13:09 Loren Roosendaal > haha DNQ... ouch ;)
13:09 Sean Bulger > heh
13:09 Rob Martyn > Only ouse I couldn't get it to run!
13:09 Sean Bulger > thought the 0 was an ouch :-P
13:09 Chirs Rhinehart > This is the guy who give me my yearly performance review. :)
13:09 Loren Roosendaal > haha
13:09 Sean Bulger > I fear for you ;-)
13:09 Rob Martyn > I'll defer to your judgment on Time for Heroes
13:09 Loren Roosendaal > the 0 for innovatrion on slipstream because you feel the concept was ripped?
13:10 Rob Martyn > I jsut find it hard to think that the boxes, multiple cursors and clickdown mechanics would all be key in both games without it being seen before
13:10 Garrett Hoofman Oh, one more quick one guys, http://danvollans.com/gamejam/
13:11 Garrett Hoofman Didn't think they'd be able to submit it today, but they got the domain up
13:11 Garrett Hoofman Just a wesbite game
13:11 Rob Martyn > Maybe they are just the only obvious mechanics...Chris, can you think of another of the topof your head?
13:11 Chirs Rhinehart > another new mechanic, or another argument towards why it looks ripped?
13:11 Rob Martyn > I mean, an obvious other approach would be an obstacle of some kind, like a gun to run past or something
13:12 Rob Martyn > No, another mechanic you could put in.
13:12 Chirs Rhinehart > it seems awfully close to me, too: pressure plates, even just the concept of going room to room
13:12 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
13:12 Chirs Rhinehart > doing something to "save" a past cursor from cursor death
13:12 Loren Roosendaal > it seems almost weird there's no more physical barriers since you are an arrow not a pointer
13:12 Sean Bulger > This game frightens and confuses me
13:15 Rob Martyn > I'm with you Sean, though I like the "current events" quality, but is Timothy McVeigh in the class somewhere?
13:16 Loren Roosendaal > just wrote out my scores
13:16 Rob Martyn > Can you figure out what you actually do?
13:16 Rob Martyn > Shoot
13:16 Loren Roosendaal > I tried to keep a similar range so some of em will come out rather similar...
13:16 Loren Roosendaal > I agree basically that no game here really needs over 7/10 points ;)
13:16 Sean Bulger > same
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Temporal Insurgent 7 7 7
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Chronik 5 6 3
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Time for heroes 5 5 2
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Slipstream 3 6 2
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Thyme traders 4 1 4
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Pickles 2 3 3
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > Kid adventure 1 1 1
13:17 Loren Roosendaal > now the last one you coulod have seen coming :P
13:18 Loren Roosendaal > could*
13:18 Rob Martyn > yeah, I think Kid Adventure won't be surprised at their score
13:18 Chirs Rhinehart > Weird. Mine are pretty similar, too
13:18 Loren Roosendaal > so who's next? :)
13:19 Chirs Rhinehart > maybe that's not so weird, though :)
13:19 Rob Martyn > I think the range is a message in itself, in that a few small things could have made a huge difference in the experience, had they chosen to focus on them
13:19 Loren Roosendaal > we'll chalk it up to "great minds think alike"? ;)
13:19 Chirs Rhinehart > Here are mine
13:19 Loren Roosendaal > absolutely rob
13:19 Chirs Rhinehart > Temporal Insurgent 7 7 7
13:19 Chirs Rhinehart > Chronik the Time Keeper 7 7 6
13:20 Chirs Rhinehart > SlipStream 6 6 2
13:20 Chirs Rhinehart > Fuzzy Pickles 4 5 5
13:20 Chirs Rhinehart > Xbox Kid Adventure 2 2 3
13:20 Chirs Rhinehart > Other two I couldn't get to work
13:20 Rob Martyn > And this is why we don't fire anyone at our office...
13:20 Rob Martyn > :)
13:21 Sean Bulger > XKA: 111 SS: 463 FP: 232 CTK: 653 TT: 413 TFH: 442 TI: 777
13:21 Chirs Rhinehart > I knew you were going to say something like that :)
13:21 Loren Roosendaal > lol
13:21 Loren Roosendaal > how efficient sean
13:21 Sean Bulger > I try.
13:21 Rob Martyn > I was just thinking, a much better way to do this
13:21 Sean Bulger > I studied at Tech as a technical communicator!
13:22 Rob Martyn > So, who is the person in charge of this, and what do they do with these numbers?
13:22 Sean Bulger > That was a lot of judging.
13:23 Rob Martyn > Anyone have an opinion on 'MO? Other than they can't get it to play?
13:23 Loren Roosendaal > MO?
13:23 Loren Roosendaal > oh guys
13:23 Sean Bulger > My opinion on it is that I have no idea what is going on
13:23 Loren Roosendaal > I didn't see that entry yet, lol
13:24 Chirs Rhinehart > d'oh
13:24 Rob Martyn > Me either. I can't buy, I can't affect the countdown, I can't take any action, and it'
13:24 Rob Martyn > it's buggy
13:25 Sean Bulger > Yeah
13:25 Sean Bulger > this actually, so far, ranks lower than XKA for me
13:25 Chirs Rhinehart > checking it out now
13:25 Sean Bulger > Somehow
13:25 Rob Martyn > I have it in the Kid Adventure camp, but a 3 for theme and a 0 for game
13:26 Rob Martyn > It's a worse game, but it does have a time theme....maybe a 2 for theme, becuase it's the obvious use of a time theme, but no one else did it
13:26 Sean Bulger > Hm, 011
13:26 Loren Roosendaal > agreed, for me it ranks maybe slightly higher then xbox kid... but that's like 1 point ;)
13:26 Loren Roosendaal > neither is a game by the looks of it
13:26 Loren Roosendaal > ah actually
13:26 Loren Roosendaal > scratch that :P
13:26 Sean Bulger > I think I think the xbox kid one had more gameplay
13:27 Loren Roosendaal > I will put this one at most even to xbox kid
13:27 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
13:27 Rob Martyn > Wait....you found a way in to the game?
13:27 Loren Roosendaal > more like 2 points for this one
13:27 Rob Martyn > Oh, never mind
13:27 Chirs Rhinehart > yes, and at least xbk had a pseudo time theme in it
13:27 Rob Martyn > Was there any time theme in the xbox kid one?
13:27 Sean Bulger > Xbox just needed some sort of timer to see how long you could keep everyone alive or some such
13:27 Sean Bulger > And it could have been a game
13:27 Sean Bulger > sorta
13:27 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
13:28 Loren Roosendaal > the time theme was accellerating or slowing down peoples lifetime
13:28 Rob Martyn > Wait, was I trying to keep them alive? I thought I was trying to kill them
13:28 Loren Roosendaal > it was utterly unclear which to do
13:28 Sean Bulger > you could do both
13:28 Sean Bulger > ...which is where it lost me
13:28 Loren Roosendaal > but it's more game then MO
13:28 Chirs Rhinehart > I thought I was trying to freeze them in time and keep them alive
13:28 Loren Roosendaal > I score MO a solid... mmm 0 1 1 or so
13:29 Chirs Rhinehart > I was able to look stuff up in wikipedia via MO, though
13:29 Sean Bulger > Surfing wikipedia isn't a game ;-)
13:29 Rob Martyn > Ookay, then I'll leave XKA at a 1, and put MO in the same place.
13:29 Chirs Rhinehart > I felt like I "hacked" the game :)
13:29 Loren Roosendaal > shhh sean, we're trying to "expand the market" ;)
13:29 Sean Bulger > lol
13:29 Sean Bulger > We could make a Wiki-fight in the vein of a Google-fight
13:30 Sean Bulger > then I might give it some sort of acknowledgement.
13:30 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
13:30 Rob Martyn > I just had a terible thought, followed by another terrible thought
13:30 Sean Bulger > In fact, the concept amuses me
13:30 Sean Bulger > Go on
13:30 Sean Bulger > Does it have something to do with wiki-fighting? As the same thing happeend to me.
13:30 Rob Martyn > I would love to get 4 game industry people such as ourselves and do a game in parallel with these guys, just to break their spirit about how much game developers know and how much they have to learn
13:31 Rob Martyn > Then I thought, hat if ours was worse?
13:31 Garrett Hoofman You're all set on the scores then?
13:31 Sean Bulger > Heh
13:31 Loren Roosendaal > hahaha
13:31 Sean Bulger > Yeah, I think so
13:31 Rob Martyn > Yes
13:31 Loren Roosendaal > Rob I think when we see a contest like this we all go... oh man I would totally participate... but that'd just be mean...
13:32 Rob Martyn > ...assuming we can think straight after being up 24 hours in a row...
13:32 Sean Bulger > Could be worse.
13:32 Chirs Rhinehart > I think that's an interesting idea, Rob
13:32 Sean Bulger > The Global Game Jam was 48
13:32 Loren Roosendaal > ofcourse the EA folks will beat us with experience...
13:32 Rob Martyn > You'll be happy to know we had Norm working here all weekend, in spirit with the Game Jam guys
13:32 Loren Roosendaal > not at gamedev, but at working 24 hours in a row ;)
13:33 Sean Bulger > Rob: Good. And just keep him there. Whip 'em a bit if he slows down. ;-)
13:33 Garrett Hoofman If you guys want to come to next years game jam as contestants, we'd more than love to have you.
13:33 Rob Martyn > Not anymore, as I understand it, EA is slowing down
13:33 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
13:33 Loren Roosendaal > only old school EA people ofcourse
13:33 Loren Roosendaal > that joke is rapidly getting outdated
13:33 Sean Bulger > A touch.
13:33 Rob Martyn > You think after judging this year I'll expose myself the same kind of ridicule I'm throwing at others? :) Not a chance...
13:33 Sean Bulger > They're getting a touch less evil these days
13:34 Loren Roosendaal > hehe
13:35 Rob Martyn > I think 50-year-old guys like me would need "3 straight 8 hour days" as our jam
13:35 Loren Roosendaal > well I presume you've seen all our score pass by garrett?
13:35 Loren Roosendaal > just do an 8 hour one, to keep the playing field a bit more even
13:36 Sean Bulger > That'd be interesting.
13:36 Garrett Hoofman Ok, can I have you guys e-mail me your scoring? gambitsunob at gmail dot come
13:36 Sean Bulger > You'd have to keep the games very simple
13:36 Loren Roosendaal > then relax, have some chow and sleep while the rest slaves away
13:36 Garrett Hoofman com* obviously
13:36 Sean Bulger > Unless you mean for yourselves, not everyone :-)
13:36 Rob Martyn > Oh, hell, I just closed that doc without saving. don't anyone write too much while I scroll up and get it
13:38 Loren Roosendaal > a lot of valuable feed back came by in here... I hope this thing keeps chatlogs?
13:38 Garrett Hoofman Yeah it does
13:38 Loren Roosendaal > good, you might want to save em
13:38 Garrett Hoofman Would you guys like me to post a link to the the log on the website?
13:38 Rob Martyn > okay, saved
13:39 Loren Roosendaal > because there's a discussion of every single game in here... I'll leave that up to the others, I wasn't so harsh as to mind my comments being posted :D
13:39 Garrett Hoofman hehe
13:39 Loren Roosendaal > most of them are really about what people could have done to make their game better in the same time :)
13:40 Sean Bulger > At the very least, a summary of tips would be good.
13:40 Sean Bulger > ...and that really should be done anyway, as that would be more directly helpful
13:40 Loren Roosendaal > I'd like to get a version of the logs sent to me either way...
13:40 Loren Roosendaal > yeah
13:40 Sean Bulger > Then reading throug h a bunch of logs, which likely no one will do
13:40 Loren Roosendaal > you could probably just filter out the key feedback
13:40 Loren Roosendaal > and post that per game
13:40 Sean Bulger > That isn't a bad idea
13:41 Loren Roosendaal > there's clear discussions in ther about each specific game you could probably filter em out quick
13:41 Rob Martyn > I don't mind my comments being shared so long as those in charge don't think they would be counter-productive.
13:41 Rob Martyn > But then I come from EA in the old days, which i recognize isn't for everyone
13:41 Sean Bulger > I'm fine with it, I just hope I don't seem like a jackass :-P
13:41 Chirs Rhinehart > It's fine now that you've said that and absolved yourself, Sean :)
13:41 Sean Bulger > Hehe
13:41 Garrett Hoofman lol
13:41 Loren Roosendaal > Well I think now would be a good time to point out that we ofcourse enjoyed seeing you all try hard to make something in 24 hours time...
13:42 Rob Martyn > Probably more productive if someone wants to take the time to distill it, so they don't have to read everything, unless they want to.
13:42 Rob Martyn > Agreed, Loren
13:42 Loren Roosendaal > which in itself is something we can only encourage
13:42 Sean Bulger > Definitely. I sat in on the first Houghton Game Jam while I was still attending Tech, so... I know it can be rough.
13:42 Sean Bulger > I'll say this much though. Playing Rez at the end of it was good times.
13:42 Rob Martyn > We all know it's harder to be the developer than the critic
13:42 Loren Roosendaal > and a fair number of the games here, infact even the most lowly graded ones could turn out as fun experiences in the end...
13:43 Sean Bulger > They just need more development time and some tweaks, for the most part.
13:43 Chirs Rhinehart > Yeah, 24 games are pretty hard -- all these guys should be commended on making the effort
13:43 Sean Bulger > And, I noticed the same thing went for a lot of the Global Game Jam stuff too
13:43 Loren Roosendaal > in general people will need to focus more on finding the fun and less on feature density and content
13:43 Chirs Rhinehart > It's giving me the urge to do another 24 hour game... last one I did was a long time ago.
13:43 Rob Martyn > Yup, and for those low rated games, really it's about finding the game dynamics
13:43 Loren Roosendaal > and the results at the end of a short period will be far more impressive
13:43 Rob Martyn > Erp, what he (Loren) said
13:44 Sean Bulger > Start small, build a solid core... then you can branch out
13:44 Chirs Rhinehart > Actually, here it is:
http://www.humanhead.com/images/DMV_v11.zip
13:44 Chirs Rhinehart > (not sure why it's in "images" on our site though... weird)
13:44 Loren Roosendaal > each of these games pretty much has the potential of being fun in another week or so :) and some already are now
13:44 Rob Martyn > Ooooh, now we can judge Chris's...are you sure you want to explose that?
13:44 Sean Bulger > Hopefully the dev teams will actually see them through.
13:45 Chirs Rhinehart > Exactly, guys... find the fun, and then make sure what you have is very clear to the player (signs and feedback)
13:45 Sean Bulger > I know a lot of those people probably want to get into the industry and, well, actually polishing these things up will help show yourself off.
13:45 Loren Roosendaal > ah yes that was the other big thing
13:45 Loren Roosendaal > feedback
13:45 Loren Roosendaal > make it clear people see what's happening game mechanic wise
13:45 Chirs Rhinehart > haha... judge away. It fails the 24 hour test, anyway, since we ended up taking 33 hours on it. Jason needed to sleep. Weak.
13:45 Loren Roosendaal > have score numbers pop up, show directions, do something to let us know what's going on :)
13:45 Rob Martyn > or what we should do
13:45 Loren Roosendaal > indeed
13:46 Rob Martyn > (assuming there's actually something to do, MO)
13:46 Chirs Rhinehart > Need to get other eyeballs on it... all that stuff becomes immediately apparent to someone new, but some of it can be easy to miss when you're deep in dev.
13:46 Loren Roosendaal > my scores are sent
13:47 Loren Roosendaal > and always presume you understand your game way too well and are way too good at it :)
13:47 Rob Martyn > Sent as well
13:47 Sean Bulger > Oh yes
13:47 Sean Bulger > And mind was sent off too
13:47 Loren Roosendaal > I once made a space shooter in 3 weeks for a contest
13:47 Sean Bulger > Everything is going to seem a lot more intuitive to you if you designed it.
13:47 Loren Roosendaal > had to dig it out of the mothballs sometime later
13:48 Loren Roosendaal > (full 3d one) no one could manage to get past level 3 or so, lol
13:48 Chirs Rhinehart > mind are sent
13:48 Loren Roosendaal > insanely hard, lol
13:48 Chirs Rhinehart > mine*
13:48 Garrett Hoofman I got all of the scores, thankyou guys
13:48 Sean Bulger > Chris is also telepathic.
13:48 Chirs Rhinehart > haha :)
13:48 Rob Martyn > Garrett, is this kind of feedback institutionalized in some way?
13:49 Rob Martyn > Like, would next year's contestants have an opportunity to look at this feedback to see what judges had problems with, or were looking for?
13:49 Garrett Hoofman Yes, it'll be put up on this website and it'll stay here
13:49 Rob Martyn > Or, conversely, did this year's contestants see last year's judges comments to get a sense of what they should be targeting?
13:50 Garrett Hoofman I designed the site so that it can keep a hold of all the content
13:50 Sean Bulger > I think this is the first year 'real judging' has happened, isn't it?
13:50 Garrett Hoofman The previous years the judging was done by the contestants, it was a community vote
13:50 Sean Bulger > Yeah
13:50 Loren Roosendaal > yeah this information should be hugely helpful for others to get started
13:50 Rob Martyn > Ahhh...nothing like getting the professionals in to ruin everyone's good time
13:51 Loren Roosendaal > I'll be happy to when things settle down spend half an hour writting down a bit of advice for next years participants
13:51 Garrett Hoofman Yeah, I'm sure the contestants will all be thrilled to read through your comments and take everything into consideration.
13:51 Sean Bulger > A little bit of constructive critisism can go a long way though.
13:51 Rob Martyn > I think NEXT year's contestants will be thrilled to read our comments :)
13:51 Loren Roosendaal > pass it around you guys as well if you want to drop anything I missed in
13:51 Rob Martyn > this year's, not so much
13:51 Loren Roosendaal > haha
13:51 Sean Bulger > That's a good plan, Loren.
13:51 Chirs Rhinehart > Great idea, Loren
13:52 Loren Roosendaal > I believe I have all your e-mails in the CC of garretts e-mail
13:52 Sean Bulger > You should
13:52 Chirs Rhinehart > yup
13:52 Rob Martyn > yup
13:52 Loren Roosendaal > yup, looks like it
13:52 Garrett Hoofman Unfortunately the ZMan never showed up.
13:53 Rob Martyn > What, you wanted more criticism?
13:53 Loren Roosendaal > haha
13:53 Loren Roosendaal > I don't know if another judge would have helped anymore, lmao
13:53 Garrett Hoofman lol
13:53 Sean Bulger > I think we covered it, yeah ;-)
13:54 Rob Martyn > Well, time to go find Norm and deliver more flogging
13:54 Garrett Hoofman Any suggestions you can think of as far as making it easier for you as the judges for next years judges?
13:54 Sean Bulger > Flog 'em good! :-P
13:54 Rob Martyn > Oh wait, more feedback...
13:54 Loren Roosendaal > make sure all java games come in easy to run jars
13:54 Loren Roosendaal > ensure everyone has readmes included\
13:54 Sean Bulger > Please, pelase do that
13:54 Garrett Hoofman I'll make sure to make a note of that.
13:54 Chirs Rhinehart > exactly...critical that we can run them easily.
13:54 Loren Roosendaal > if you build a game for a specific controller make sure keyboard works too
13:54 Rob Martyn > Yes, I found the executable Jar files WAY easier than installing ,Net and XNA and not getting things to run if I didn't go to the command line
13:54 Sean Bulger > yep
13:55 Loren Roosendaal > jar, exe, flash etc. all good stuff
13:55 Sean Bulger > Just that will go a long way
13:55 Garrett Hoofman Alrighty
13:55 Sean Bulger > Other than that, I think judging went pretty well
13:55 Rob Martyn > readmes, critical
13:56 Rob Martyn > (or even better, put instructions on the main screen, but now we're getting into design)
13:56 Loren Roosendaal > haha yes
13:56 Loren Roosendaal > that's more a game issue here indeed
13:56 Loren Roosendaal > make games explain themselves if you can :)
13:56 Sean Bulger > Yep
13:56 Sean Bulger > At least provide some way to point out controls/basic concept
13:56 Chirs Rhinehart > was just going to say that. if the game needs a ton of instructions, then maybe it's not the best 24-hour game
13:56 Rob Martyn > :) giood use of audio "press the space bar now"
13:57 Sean Bulger > Audio cues ftw ;-)
13:57 Loren Roosendaal > ample displaying of "press X not to die...."
13:57 Rob Martyn > Honestly, 'Merica! Online could be a great game, adn we just don't know how to unlock it.
13:57 Loren Roosendaal > or what it does if we run it...
13:57 Sean Bulger > Or if you run it
13:57 Loren Roosendaal > I just see myself managing to get negative health and spending money I can't even see how much I have of
13:58 Sean Bulger > And wiki pages.
13:58 Sean Bulger > don't forget those
13:58 Loren Roosendaal > oh and surfing wikipedia
13:58 Loren Roosendaal > haha indeed
13:58 Rob Martyn > ha!
13:58 Rob Martyn > 'K, back to Norm. Thanks for the invitation, Garrett.
13:58 Sean Bulger > It was good times.
13:58 Garrett Hoofman Thanks for helping Rob
13:59 Sean Bulger > I probably should actually get some work done today. *cough*
13:59 Rob Martyn > Guys, great meeting you, let's stay in touch
13:59 Garrett Hoofman And thank you everybody else for taking the time to do this
13:59 Sean Bulger > Likewise.
13:59 Sean Bulger > It was fun
13:59 Chirs Rhinehart > Definitely... great meet you guys. Thanks for the invite. This was fun, and I hope helpful for people.
13:59 Rob Martyn > Nice to think about someone else's game for a couple of hours
13:59 Garrett Hoofman :)
13:59 Sean Bulger > Hehe
13:59 Rob Martyn > Cheers
13:59 Chirs Rhinehart > Agreed. Time to dive back into each of our games.
14:00 Chirs Rhinehart > Later, all!
14:00 Loren Roosendaal > later chris
14:00 Sean Bulger > Laters!
14:00 Loren Roosendaal > I'll drop that e-mail by you guys sometime in the next days...
14:00 Sean Bulger > I'll keep an eye out for it.
14:01 Sean Bulger > Welp, I'm going to pop out and get back to fiddling with audio. Yay...
14:01 Sean Bulger > Laters.
14:02 Loren Roosendaal > enjoy :)
14:02 Loren Roosendaal > laters